Help for David James

Hi,

I am researching my mum's ancestors who lived in Hales (or Hale) Street and nearby Stanhope Street from about 1870 to 1910.  Hales St has 

virtually vanished (a short stub remains off  Deptford High Street) - presumably bombed out during the war, and Stanhope Street has vanished 

completely.

Does any of your readers have any background information about these two streets, or the people that lived there?  My mother's maiden name was 

Watson and her grand mother's maiden name was Jones.  Both families seems to have moved around a lot within the Hales/Stanhope Street area 

and finally moved south to Sydenham in 1909 or 1910.

Your web site (old deptford history) is absolutely fascinating!

The King Of Prussia/ King of Belgium Public House Albury Street.

A Rare photo of the King of Belgium, Formerly The King of Prussia.

The early address is at 4,5 & 6 Union Street. At 5 Creek Road by 1884, and 8 Creek Road by 1891,then 8 Albury Street by 1910. By 1921 (probably by the start of WW1, it is renamed the King of Belguim.

Colins grandfather (Richard Charles Quittenton) bought the lease of the ale house King of Prussia in 1895 for £350 from Thomas Hamilton Fox and his brother Walter St. John Fox, at a ground rent of £40 payable on the "usual quarter days" to Nalder and Collyer, brewers of Croydon. My grandfather did not live there, only the pot-man was resident at that time. In 1902 the ale house was rebuilt as a public house (a foxes head was depicted on each of two facade columns for the Fox brothers). In 1903 my grandfather continued to lease it at £50 quarterly. He also moved into it with his 2nd wife Minnie Elizabeth, nee Walsh and Albert (son by 1st. wife Fanny Ellen, nee Vodden d. 1897). During WWI and as a result of the anti-German riots, the name of the pub was changed to King of Belgium. My uncle Hector was born there (1903-1904), my uncle Leonard was born there (1904-1975) and my mother Ella was born there (1909-2004). In 1924 my grandfather retired and sold the lease of the pub for £600. I believe that the pub did not survive the war as did much of Deptford. On his retirement (to Eastbourne) he bought rental properties 22/24 Clyde St., one of which was rented to Mrs Hill who lived there with her son Reginald and her daughter Marjorie (married Charles Wincup).

In 1905, one of the Stratton brothers was arrested as he exited the pub. He knew that the police were outside waiting for him. My grandmother was alone in the pub behind the bar that night and Stratton offered to help her clean up. My grandmother knew him of old, and refused to let him behind the bar. If she had done, Stratton could have escaped over the back fence and into Pickford's yard.

Colins mother left home when she was 21 from Eastbourne and moved in with Mrs. Hill in Clyde St. The house had only 2 bedrooms with a double bed in each. My mother shared one bed with Marjory and another male lodger (polish artist named Rodolf Krystra (?)) shared the other double bed with Reg. Nobody thought anything about such things THEN! Mrs Hill slept in the kitchen. My mother married my father (born in the Stowage) in April 1939 and moved to a flat in Lewisham owned by Charlie Watson. His family owned two wood yards and a general shop in Deptford and the lease of several houses in Albury St. and still has some of those Grinling Gibbons portico's. I was born in 1940, and was brought up in Lewisham.

Colin E. Bailey.

My thanks to Colin for sharing his families history,  great information especially that photo.   

A poem by H Cowlands 1880. Help to identify this man

The following letter originates from Deptford.

It dates 1880 and I believe it was sent to my Great Grandfather John Shipston or his wife Elizabeth Ball. It was in my Grandfathers collection of family letters.
I have searched all known methods of finding its author or anything about him/ Her.
I ask to post this to your readers as a last attempt to gather information on what appears to be a most colourful person. I myself live in Australia and have tried for some time now to find H. Cowlands to no avail. I understand this is an unusual request but would be ever so grateful if any hint in this letter could help me find more on the author.

It is a long and unusually written letter/ poem as you’ll see. Thank you so much, in advance for any help given to understand the town, times and the person.
Regards Harold Shipston.
Queensland Australia.
------------------------------------------------

H. Cowlands poem. (transcript)

------------------------

Monday, April 26th

1880

96 years old

Dear Cousin, I am very glad,

To say, that work is not so bad.

As it was weeks ago

Perhaps now the Elections done

A better time is coming on.

Although it may come slow

I never saw in all my life

Such hot discussion, bitter strife

As in this town of late

A thousand flags there might be seen

From Deptford Broadway to the green

Of every size and shape

The Tories have got in, it’s true

Just for this Borough, but there few

Compared with liberals round

So now we hope, for better times

For more success and fewer crimes

And drink crush’d to the ground

I never want, such men to guide

Who thousands, try to lead aside

By advocating drink

It is, our national disgrace

And men, by it in every place

Are brought to ruin’s brink

But I no further, will discuss

Our politics, though all of us

In someway, are concerned

If, God but rule us we are blessed

He views the proud, and the oppressed

The ignorant, and learned.

Now, of myself a little news

I still continue making shoes

At Deptford, in High Street

Mady is my employer’s name

And he has got, a noted fame

For thousands do him greet.

His shop is full, where’ere I go

His stock is large his prices low

Not many can him beat

There’s Wellington’s likewise high lows

There’s cashmere boots and patent toes

And boots for tender feet

There’s Watertights, and bluchers too

Lace ups and balmorals on view

Slippers, and socks, as well

Look in, no matter where it be

It is astonishing, to see

The hundreds he does sell

For want of something else to do

The other day, I went to view

Blackheath, and Greenwich Park

Here on a hill with great delight

Beauties of nature, came in sight

And warmed my very heart

“Oh,” how sublime, is this thought I 

Whilst gazing at the earth, and sky

And looking, all around

How bright, and cheerful, is the spring

The birds, how happy, on the wing

There notes how sweet they sound

The river Thames, I saw below

With ships a passing, to and fro

Amidst, the Sparkling wave

How many lives, throughout the year

Thought I, do sink and perish here

And find a watery grave

Now, how are all of you at potton

Don’t think, that I, have quite forgotten

My friends, residing there

Also a few, at Gamlingay

Some, sixteen-thousand miles away

Of whom, I little hear

To Lizzy Chapman, give my love

May the have comfort, from above

From whence our blessings flow

And may her Mother daily find

That God is merciful and kind

In darkest shades of woe

To Mrs Seal, remember me

And tell her, Lucy longs to see

Her little girl and boy

And, as the future days, draw nigh

Cheerful, I hope she’ll live and die

Then enter into Joy

And then her Brother George comes next

He is a man, not often vexed

Though always very dark

Easy, and quiet, is his life

I wish his children, and his wife

Success with all my heart

And then remember our dear Mother

I really think, there’s not another

More useful, that can be

Oh, may her last days be her best

Then enter everlasting rest

And sing of victory

Another word, before I’ve done

Tell Minnie, she’s to sure and come

In the bright month of May

With us we wish for her to dwell

As many things we have to tell

So she must not delay

Now Your Dear Mother, Father too

I trust that God will bring them through

And bless their latter days

Then say Oh, “Death where is thy sting

And mount o high, to dwell and sing

A song of endless praise

And now Dear Cousin, I must close

These simple rhymes, but don’t suppose

Dear Ebins not in mind

If tis God’s will I hope that he

May be restored and happy be

And many blessings find

Good Bye dear friend. God bless you all

The weak, the strong, the great, the small

I wish you peace and love

And when your days, on earth are gone

May heaven be your eternal home

To dwell with saints above

H Cowlands

Deptford

Kent

Help please

Hello,

I wonder if anyone has any information about both sides of my Deptford family.

My grandad John Carney (now 86) lived in 73 Fawcett Road, Deptford, from 1928 onwards. His parents, Bridget (born O'Connor) and John Carney, lived there from even before that. My grandad also had siblings Brendan and Sheila Carney. Unfortunately, my grandad was put into care quite early on as his mother died so we don't have a lot of information about his Deptford days. Any memories of the family or Fawcett road would be greatly appreciated! 

Another side of my Deptford family history is that my New Cross Nan, Pauline Carney's (born Freeman) family used to run a (Jewish?) grocery store (or maybe a sweet shop) along Deptford Broadway, on the corner of the park and next to or near Molins Cigarette factory. My nan can't remember the name of the shop but thinks it was a family name - so probably Freeman's/Freemans or Friedman's? Rosenburg was also a family name: Eva Rosenburg and John Freeman were my great-grandparents. 

Both my grandparents are old now and enjoy talking about their family history so any information or any stories would be so lovely!

Thank you.

Hi - I was wondering if you might be able to help me,

My great-great-grandmother Julia Button formerly Murphy née Calnan/Hayes married her second husband, Edwin Charles Button in 1933 whilst living at 4 Grenville House, New King Street, Deptford. Family legend has it that she left her husband for another man (her first husband, Timothy Murphy died in 1924). She also worked as a money-lender, a profession which other Catholics would have found distasteful. As a result she fell out with most of her ten children from this marriage.

Julia died in 1949, nine years after her husband Edwin Charles Button. I would very much like to hear from anyone who may have known her. Unfortunately as a result of their fall-out, I have no photos of either of them to share, although it is possible that some may exist.

Her birth has also been the cause of some confusion - on both her marriage licenses she lists herself as the daughter of John Calnan, however on the birth certificates for half of her children she lists her surname as Hayes. She married in 1887 at the age of c. 16. There is no record for a Julia Calnan in the 1881 census but there is some record of a Julia Hayes - how she connects to the Calnan family is yet another mystery.

Thank you,

Daniel Maldonado

Help for Gill

Just wondering if anyone has any photographs of Dorking Road or the corner shop there before demolition?
My family were the Daltons and I am struggling to find any photos of this road.
Attached photo of my mum Marjorie Dalton (now 96!) and her brother Stan (sadly passed).

Gill Middleton

26 Deptford Broadway

Peter sent this photo in saying....

 I think this might be next door to the sweet shop in Church Street/The Broadway 

 oh BTW thats my great uncle and his half brother in the doorway.

The shop belonged to Charles Allen  b 1800  d  1870 

Sayes Court

View of the John Evelyn's manor house at Sayes Court, based on a drawing by Evelyn himself. The diarist John Evelyn came into possession of the Elizabethan manor house and the estate at Sayes Court through marriage to the heiress Mary Browne in 1647. He took up residence at the house in 1652 and lived there until 1694 when he returned to his family estate at Wootton, Surrey, letting the property to rent paying tenants.

The house was pulled down in 1728 or 1729, and the workhouse built on its site 

Sayes Court was the ancient manor house of Deptford. There was a building on the site from the 12th century. However, the building shown here (originally the St Nicholas Workhouse) dates from 1729. It was demolished c.1930.

This picture depicts one of the old parish workhouses that served the local poor in south London. In 1777 the parish of St Nicholas was known to have 130 inmates. The Poor-law amendments in 1834 stated that "no able-bodied person was to receive money or other help from Poor Law Authorities except in a workhouse". Despite the workhouse being considered a harsh environment, one observer of Greenwich's poor was to note: "It is curious to notice the effect that the workhouse regime has in prolonging the lives of those who may have often survived hard buffetings in the world. Anxiety and care concerning the future are thrown off at the entrance to the house, and the inmates are henceforth placed under conditions more favourable to health and longevity than they have ever before experienced".

Creek Bridge through the Ages

I'm looking for any information/photographs reflecting life in Pender Street (off Deptford Church St and Berthon St), particularly between the two World Wars, and wondered whether any one on Old Deptford might be able to help.

My father grew up at 25 Pender Street between 1920 and 1937 with his younger sister and, early on, with an older married sister and her husband who lodged there. For some of this time, his mother (my grandmother) worked as a charwoman at theRachel McMillan Nursery which Dad also attended from age 3 to 9 before transferring to the Clyde Street School for Boys. 

Dad later described the area as 'a dreadful slum area by the Thames' and, with no other financial support (as far as I know), it must have been a poverty-stricken up-bringing. How my grandmother managed to keep the family together and a roof over their heads in such circumstances I can't imagine so any insight into day-to-day life at that time would be fascinating, or any recollections at all.y

Dad did record some of his experiences many years later and recalled these names among his nursery schoolmates - Katie Seymour, Dorothy Amstead, Hilda Court, the Fergusons, the Rossiters and Bertie Shear. So perhaps these might ring a few bells?

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Christopher Snowden

B&B for the RUSSIANS

Little snippet I came across regarding the above which may be of interest: During the 5th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party which took place in London between May 13 and June 1, 1907 many of the delegates were billeted in Carrington House and apparently were quite impressed with the facilities. (Lenin and Stalin stayed elsewhere!) See - Nottingham Evening Post, 11 May 1907, 3; 'Congress in a Lodging House'. The report claims that the first meeting of the Congress was held on Friday 10th May in Carrington House. (Although it is generally believed that the sessions actually took place in the Brotherhood Church, Southgate Road in Islington.) Regards Bob Henderson

Help for Teresa

I wonder if anyone can help? I am working on a family tree for a friend but have hit a sticky patch.

My friends grandfather was Alfred Ernest Stanton born in 1905. I have a baptism record for him that States his father was Alfred Stanton and his mother was Florence (Shreeves) that they were living at 22 Octavia Street and that he was a Bar Man. I have not found a marriage for these two and am having trouble continuing on this Stanton line. there are talks of a pub in deptford, which does tie up with the baptism record, but haven't traced him to a pub. also New Cross and a theatre, maybe hearsay links but thought I'd add them just in case it rings any bells with people. I know not much to go on but any help greatly appreciated.

Regards, Teresa

Help for Jackie please

I am trying to get a replacement WW1 roll of honour for  St. Lukes, Deptford. I am trying to find a photo of the roll of honour at St Lukes Church , Deptford. Unfortunately the photos I have found on the internet (e.g.http://lewishamwarmemorials.wikidot.com/memorial:deptford-st-luke-ww1-war-memorial) I am unable to read the names. I do have 100 names but am missing the 47 that were on the 2 additional panels. I wonder if anyone knows of any other photos. I have contacted the local church, Lewisham archives, LMA, British Legion,  Imperial War Museum and checked the local newspaper of the time but to no avail.

Many thanks

Jackie

Hi

I hope you might be able to help me by posting the following question on your Deptford History website.

I trying to track down information about a group of teenagers who belonged to the St Joseph's youth club ramblers group in the war. I have extracts of a diary from1943 handed down by my wife's late father Bill Grizzell. I'm trying to piece together the stories of the people in that diary. Father Coleburt ran the group and I know about him, he would have been linked to Our Lady of the Assumption church in Deptford high street. The members of the club included Arthur James, Susan Hickman, Betty Stork, Esther Gummer, John Wren, Dickie Boorman, John Grogan, Gerald Donoghue and Joan Sharp. All would have been about 16 or 17 at the time the diary was written.

Thanks 

Peter Eustace

Deptford Reminiscences from Christine Fagan

My nan lived in Brookmill Road, just past Carrington House (but not in the Sylvan Cottages), and we often visited her there in the 1950's.

Her front door opened onto the street, and there was a long passage leading down to a living room with a scullery off. The living room was typical of the time, with a cast iron cooking range/fireplace (nothing at all fancy, mind you). I remember being horrified once, by the smell and look of her dinner simmering on the stove. It was green tripe (unbleached) and is unfit for human consumption apparently, but she still lived to a ripe old age.

The other two rooms off the passage must have been a bedroom and a parlour, although I never got to see inside either.

Upstairs was rented to another family, as was quite usual in those days. Most houses where I lived, in East London, were multiple occupancy. A young couple, wanting to get married, would speak to their mother's landlord who would find them a room in a house nearby. As they got on their feet financially, they might rent an additional room as it became available, and eventually a whole floor. It was usually a really large family who ever rented a whole house.

This was the reason that London then was a succession of 'hamlets'. I knew everyone in a radius of 4 or 5 streets, and was related to a number of them. These communities were broken up due to the post war 'slum clearance', initiated by a Labour Government. I often smile at the frequently referred to 'problem' of an ageing population. We lived in 'slums', unheated and without indoor plumbing, everyone smoked in tiny rooms, we burned coal, breathed in pea soupers, and played on bombsites. How come we have lived so long??

I was a bit intimidated by the men outside Carrington House, but my dad told me that a lot of them were ex-servicemen who had come home to no house and no family. After that I noticed how many of them had service tattoos. No-one ever bothered kids anyway.

I was amused to read that Carrington House was considered inferior to Rowton Houses by residents, on the grounds that it wasn't 'homely' enough.

Thanks for bringing back these memories of a slum, that is now a Conservation Area!

kind regards,

Chris Faganpt

Help for Mark please

Hello,

I was wondering if you could help me. 

My family pre and post wars were from Deptford the family name being Elston on my grandmother's side.

Enclosed is a photo of the butcher's they once owned on Deptford high street..a picture proudly on display in my great uncles house and a copy also now in mine! 

The picture is anticipated to have been from around the turn of the century may be earlier.

We believe the butcher's was called Elston's, again not too sure! 

In addition the family were landlords and or owners of the Victoria pub on grove street and the old centurion on Deptford high street during war times.

They also had the Crystal Tavern pub...but believe this was rotherhithe.

If you have any knowledge or can help pass on to someone who may no more that would be great.

Thanks 

Mark Roles

Thanks to Bill Ellson's sharp eye we can see Marks grandparents butcher's shop middle left. Also Elston's Market

Thanks Bill

"Hi there can anyone help? Trying to trace the MORGAN family for an elderly friend who was born and bred a Deptford Lad. He lived in the same building as the Morgan's and grew up with the children. War broke out families moved on and he lost contact with them. He is now approaching 90 and would love to know where they are now, or what became of them all.
They lived in RECTORY BUILDINGS, CROSS FIELD LANE, DEPTFORD in the 30's 40's? You are probably aware the 1931 census was destroyed by fire, the next census never took place because of the war and the christian names I have are mostly "nicknames". What I know is that Mr "Sonny" and Mrs Morgan had 5 children: Jessie, Ronnie, Kit (Kitty), Alfie and Dolly. Kit was definitely born in 1926. There was talk the family may have moved to Orpington or Tunbridge Wells?? But thats really all I have to go on. Interested in ANYTHING that anyone may know, marriages, proper christian names, dates, deaths, ANYTHING. I'll do anything to find some closure for my elderly friend, the families were so close, then because of war etc they were divided and lost contact.
I thank everyone in advance."

Help Please

James Ashton asks the following questions and help.



Dear Sir:

I was very interested to find your Deptford History web site.  I have a 
question rather than a story that I was hoping you might be able to help 
me with.  The C.S. Forester Hornblower novels refer to Deptford and 
there are mentions of a couple of names that I can't find any references 
to online.

The first is "Deptford Hard".  I know what a "hard" is (a firm, gentle 
slope allowing vessels to be launched or careened, usually with the help 
of the tide) and it seems reasonable that there would have been one in 
or near Deptford Yards.  Does anyone know where it was, or if it existed 
historically?

The second is "The George," apparently an establishment with 
accommodation in Deptford.  I suspect this will have been an invention 
of the author but I'd be pleased to discover otherwise. There is one 
online reference to someone living at "The George", George-row, Deptford 
in 1852 but the nearest George-row I can find is in Bermondsey.  Also, 
the National Archives hint at a "George" in Grove Street, near Cornish 
Place, in 1852: 
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/a40e0301-50ce-4ebf-b0f9-b783761edc6b 


Thanks for providing such an interesting online resource.

James Ashton

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