Saturday, 8 January 2011

A Street in Deptford


















I found this photo entitled a Deptford Slum Street? Can anyone tell me where it could be? The tower in the background could be a good eye catcher to identify it.

Was it Queen Street ......now Lamerton Street?

Update.

I took this picture last January/Feb 09. On the right is Manze's and on the left, out of view, William Hill Betting Shop. The two photos match quite well and have similarities from a building outline perspective. Manze's building outline does look similar albeit some windows and door placements may have been altered? Looking at the old map below published 1874, it shows Queen Street as it was then. Notice the PH, Public House mark on the left which could relate to the R Whites Ginger Beer and lemonade notice in the original photo above. Another thing I notice was the 45 degree angled /beveled brickwork on the right hand side in the original photo. In the recent photo I took last year of Manze's it doesn't show an angled corner so I thought it couldn't be the same location. It wasn't until I scrutinised the map further that I noticed it originaly did! I've enlarged the area I am referring to. The only thing that doen't seem the same are the dimensions of the road and pavement surfaces...seems to small and of course there's that Chimney......... Any comments please....?































Update.
The good suggestion by Shipwrights that it could be the Queen St off of Old King St. seems possible, but shown here on the map... Queen St...... is open at both ends. In the originalphoto it appears blocked off. Now ...If you look North there is a Queen's Court? which looks small enough in width and length and has a blocked, dead end to the east, but obviously looks away from the foundry area (I think) where a chimney tower could have been? Looking east on the map I could find no "works etc" the would have employed a tower chimney.

Andy


















41 comments:

CarolineLD said...

The street sign top-right looks like it probably says 'Queen Street'.

A fascinating picture - and it doesn't look all that slummy (all very clean and with some rather appealing advertising signs on the shop). I wonder if that's unfair labelling of the photo, or too much optimism on the part of this viewer?

shipwright's palace said...

There was a Queen Street that ran off the former(Old) King Street, now Watergate Street.

shipwright's palace said...

so the chimney could possibly be the chimney to the smithey in the dockyard?

Transpontine said...

Wonder when it was taken? One of the adverts seems to be for R.White's Ginger Beer, but that doesn't help with the dating as they were going from mid-19th century.

andy said...

Hey everyone thanks for your input fantastic its got me thinking now. You know Caroline I agree with you it looks very tidy and well kept not at all like a slum. I think its time to look at maps ariel views and see whether anything comes to light.

matt said...

Hi Andy
Looking at the photo of the "Deptford slum", I tend to disagree that it was Queen Street. The ornate masonry on the Manze’s shop front looks old and matches shops further along the high Street. The pub shown on the map which is now William hills was called the City Arms. I don’t think it’s a pub shown in the photo but a shop. Compare my picture and see what you think.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt1965/3182305634/in/set-72157612230122657/

Also on a detailed map such as the one you’ve shown a chimney that size would have been shown. Perhaps “Shipwrights Palace” is nearer the mark with the comment about it being near the dockyard.
Matt

andy said...

Hi Matt,

Ive posted an update ref Shipwrights plausible comments & observations. I take your input as being also near the mark. I would like to think it was Queen St. but its that chimney that spoils it. I was thinking that if the beveled brickwork on the right hand side of the photo was removed and the side of the building rebuilt at some time it would have opened up the street to it present width. In the early 50's most pubs that I knew in Deptford sold R Whites. So being just a shop doesn't sound right to me. Having a pub as you say on that corner, The City Arms, and the radius brickwork does bring it closer to being Queen/Lamerton Street. But it all falls down because of the chimney..ugh..because it's location would be somewhere at the bottom of Albury/Church St. Chris at Crossfieldswhat blog looked at the shadows from the sun to determin what axis the street is on. Now if it's setting approximately (West) the photos looking south or north if it rising (East). Was there a chimney at the Boiler Works, Butchers Row?

Paul said...

I think the original picture may be decieving as far as the width of the road goes. If you count the number of bricks in the road and measure wall to wall, you can get approx 30 bricks wall to wall. An average Victorian brick is 8'1/2 making the width of the road roughly 21"3'. Today you can fit 2 cars side by side with a small amount of space either side. An average parking space is 7"10', multiplied by 2 is 15"8'. Even allowing for error this seems to be wide enough.

Now for the chimney - is it not possible that it is located north of Creek Road on the other side of the creek? It also may not be a dead end but the roads off at the end aren't visable.

As for the shadows if this was taken around midday the sun will be high in the sky but to the south (right of picture).

I can only think this is Queen Street / Lamerton and that is just from my 30 years experience of living in various locations in Bermondsey & Deptford!

Great site though, great pic too

Paul said...

Looking again, ignore what I said about the chimney! The smaller ones with smoke could be where I said, but the big one...

No idea.

andy said...

Thanks for your comments Paul.
I to like to think its Queens St..but Ive scoured the old maps and just havent found that chimney yet. I will find it ....be assured..

Anonymous said...

It looks like Ffinch Street, to me ?

Julie said...

Hi, This is Benmore Street, my father grew up there.

andy said...

Hi Julie, that's great news where was the chimney??

Julie said...

Hi Andy, My Aunt says that the chimney is Val de Travers asphalt and paving works. At the end of Benmore street turn left into Hamar place, there were dwellings on only one side of the road and they looked out onto the factory wall.

andy said...

Hello Julie and thanks for clearing the mystery street up. Its great when someone who's lived there can confirm all the details that's been stalling the identification of this location. One more thing can you tell me what was the shop on the left in the photo? Was it a Pub or Off licence?

regards

Andy

andy said...

Hi again Julie ...where was Benmore and Hamar Place. seems to have gone?

Julie said...

Hi Andy, The shop on the corner was a general grocery store owned by the Dabin family, the gates just past the shop were the entrance to their back yard. Grace Dabin, the mother, used to pay my uncle to say swear words. The opposite corner was a house occupied by Italians, the man was known as Tary Jack (because he had very dark skin) he had a hand cart, in summer he sold ice cream and in winter he fitted a brazier and sold chestnuts. Apparently the roads in that area were named after Scottish mountains.
Looking at the 1894 ordnance survey map Benmore St was a turning off Knott St. Turn left at end into Hamar Place, at end turn left into Dugald St which brings you back to Knott St. Following the slum clearance in 1933 Knott St became a continuation of Creekside. You will find the site opposite Bronze St.

andy said...

Hi Julie,

That's interesting information... just the type of memories I find facinating and which are difficult to find in any book of Deptford.
I had to laugh "pay your uncle to swear" lol....What all that about?

Michael said...

If it is Queen's Court (off New King Street) looking east, then the chimney and steam-covered large building in the background could be Deptford Power Station, which first generated electricity in 1891. The power station was never correctly shown on maps, but covered the area north of The Stowage adjacent to St Nicholas church. It could equally be Benmore Street, although I cannot agree Val de Travers asphalt and paving works would have required a chimney of that size; if Benmore Street, the chimney is probably across the river.

Anonymous said...

There is a BBC documentary on Wednesday 6th June @ 9pm called 'the secret history of our streets' which starts in Deptford. I recognised a black and white photo to be Albury Street. I was part of a film crew that was in and around Deptford for 3 months at the beginning of this year and loved getting to know it. We filmed all over - master shipwrights, Dacca street, deptford high street, albury street, Sally army, LABAN......

Anonymous said...

The show I worked on is called 'coming up' and is seven short dramas and we were based in Deptford (Creekside) the photo I saw in the Radio Times of Albury street just happily reminded me of my three months in the area. I look forward to seeing them on screen on Channel Four sometime soon.....

Powerful Pierre said...

I think this is Benmore Street. The chimney is just to the right of the line of buildings on the right hand side of the street. Ordnance Survey map, London Sheet 105, "Blackheath 1914" the extreme top left hand corner shows Benmore Street, at the end of the street is the Asphalt Works where there is a small circle representing, I believe, a chimney. Also because the street is on the join of two maps (as usual!) refer to Ordnance Survey map, London Sheet 92, "Greenwich & Isle of Dogs 1913", extreme bottom left, the building on the left hand side of the street in the photograph has a rounded corner, this is also shown on the map.

Anonymous said...

Grace DAbin was my nan who was married to WIlliam Dabin. They had one daughter Annie who was my mum. We lived at Church Street as did my nann GRace DAbin. They used to go to BRomley by horse and cart to sell fruit and veg and shrimps and winkles and jelled eels which my nan used to cook in the cooper at 155 CHurch street. My grandad William used to hire out horses to the other costamongers from the stable down Mechanics path off church street. MY mum married William SWain and had seven children! And I went to creek ROad school in 1957. Plenty of good memories from CHurch Street. Next door to my nans was a paper shop called WInnie hydes that sold sweets, papers and grocerys. I will be happy to answer any question you might have regarding the Dabin or Swain families.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous
Do you have any information on another branch of the Dabin family in Deptford? Reuben and Annie Dabin had 12 surviving children born before the First World War. They included sons Reuben, William, (George) Richard [killed in action Feb 1917], Thomas, John, Alfred and Harry. They lived in Benmore St and Knott St, among other local places.

I am not related to the family.

Thank you

Anonymous said...

Could it be where the Dog and Bell is now? 116 Prince Street?

Rebecca said...

To Anonymous.. I knew Bill Dabin from Sidcup, His father rented out horses from the Arches, Deptford. He would drive over sometimes with one of his horses. I have very fond memories of Bill. I bought 2 horses from him when I was a teenager and kept them with him behind the Station Hotel, Sidcup (Long gone now) He taught me so much about horse handling. A very good, kind horseman. He sold fruit and veg from a horse and cart.Later he had a van. I worked with him on Saturdays when I was a young girl. A few years ago now! He was in his fifties/sixties then. I often think about him. Happy days.

Anonymous said...

Dear Rebecca
I've only just seen your comments. Thank you very much for it. I believe Bill was deaf?

Signage Design Companies said...

Excellently amazing and exciting too. Can you please mention me the source of your reference... I am happy that at least somebody gave this subject an attention.

Harley Davidson said...

Hello all. Quick question if I may.
When was Queen St re-named Lamerton Street? I have a 1911 census of a relation living in 17 Lamerton Street, Deptford.

Great picture by the way.

Paul.

Anonymous said...

The road in the picture is Albury Street, it's located at Evelyn street end of Deptford High Street. My mum was born there in 1936

Anonymous said...

I think it was taken around 1889

Anonymous said...

Re: Grace DAbin was my nan who was married to WIlliam Dabin. They had one daughter Annie who was my mum. We lived at Church Street as did my nann GRace DAbin. They used to go to BRomley by horse and cart to sell fruit and veg and shrimps and winkles and jelled eels which my nan used to cook in the cooper at 155 CHurch street. My grandad William used to hire out horses to the other costamongers from the stable down Mechanics path off church street. MY mum married William SWain and had seven children! And I went to creek ROad school in 1957. Plenty of good memories from CHurch Street. Next door to my nans was a paper shop called WInnie hydes that sold sweets, papers and grocerys. I will be happy to answer any question you might have regarding the Dabin or Swain families.

I have just read the above post and would love to know more about the Swain family you mentioned as my surname name is also Swain. The street in the picture is Albury Street, my mum was born there in 1936 her maiden name is Davis and my dad's christian name is Donald he was born in Greenwhich in July 1935 he has 6 brothers and 3 sisters.

Andrew White said...

Sorry anon its Benmore St

regards

Andy

Skinnydan said...

Having downloaded and zoomed in on the street sign on the side of the building on the right at the top, it very much looks like it says Queen Street. can just about make it out when you zoom in.

Brian Watson said...

I know this is an old item, but I have just come across it while doing family history research - many of my relatives came from Deptford.

According to the Stanford's Map of 1872, there were actually two Queen Streets in Deptford at that time. One ran between Old King Street and New King Street, and the other is a street just to the south of Willington Street that was named Collier Street on the Greenwood map of 1830. The 1881 census has two lists for Queen Street - one is for 17 houses and the other for 39 houses. I presume the larger number is the renamed Collier Street. My relatives lived at No. 4 Queen Street. Nearly all of the houses contained multiple households and an unbelievable number of people.

Incidentally I have also tried to magnify and process the street name in this photo but you really can't reach a firm conclusion due to the low definition and angle.

ca said...

I note some way back in these posts there is reference to ''Val de Travers asphalte and paving works''. My father was the managing director of Val de Travers for more than 30 years and I would be very interested in anyone information from any contributor regarding the company or anybody connected with it

Stephen Ellott said...

My father's family lived on Alvar street and he often mentioned the Val de Travers asphalt and paving works. His name was John Richard Ellott. His mother's maiden name was Murphy her father George worked as a potman and two of her brothers worked for the co. as asphalte layers.I have traced my family back in the area to 1750 although we now live around Horley in Surrey. Steve Ellott

Anonymous said...

I love this sort of detective stuff. Roads are different widths, windows and doors don't line up.

I was in Deptford the other day looking at places where I was brought up in the 50's: Congers House and Bevil House. I would guess that some 90% of Deptford succumbed to the ravages of war or, possibly worse, post-war re-development. Quite sad really...and Tidemill School is heartbreaking now.

Don Cook

Anonymous said...

does anyone know of a mr emin? story was he was a posh solicitor,around 1959,1960,s,and does anyone remember the gagliano family,audrey married Charles dabin,

Anonymous said...

Hi my Grandad used to keep his horses in the Arches in Deptford, i got told there was a fire there many years ago and his Horses died but can't find any link for this, does anyone know if there is a story on this.

Rob said...

Remember going through railway arch on my way to addey and stanhope school and there used to be a horse kept within the arch.